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State BJP quiet on culture cops; the young debate fiercely on how ‘far’ women can go
Moral policing has had its week in the sun so far, with the Sri Ram Sene igniting the debate on Saturday in Mangalore, promptly drawing support from two chief ministers of the country — of different political hues — who slapped down pubs, malls and also couples who dare to walk hand-in-hand in public.
In Delhi on Thursday, Chief Minister Sheila Dikshit opened a fresh chapter — there is no harm in girls and boys going out together, she said. She condemned the Mangalore incident and said children who go to pubs places with the “knowledge of their parents are mature enough to handle themselves”. Dikshit however said liquor shops have no place in areas which have schools and places of worship.
Also on Thursday, fellow chief minister from Congress Ashok Gehlot, who dislikes the “pub and mall culture”, sent out a clarification stating his comments the day before had been taken out of context.
Meanwhile, Karnataka’s BJP Chief Minister B S Yediyurappa, who has almost vowed not to allow this culture to flower in his state, is still dithering on taking action against the Sri Ram Sene — members of which assaulted and drove out women from a pub in Mangalore on Saturday afternoon.
Other politicians in Delhi were loath to comment, and some appeared almost cagey when asked their opinions. Delhi Finance and Excise Minister A K Walia would not say anything “right now”. Members of the Opposition, including state BJP chief O P Kohli and veteran leader V K Malhotra, shied away. “If required, I shall issue a statement tomorrow,” Kohli said.
Meanwhile, the Sri Ram Sene’s moral indignation and Gehlot and Yediyurappa’s public disapproval of pub culture has divided opinion in Delhi on both sides of the sexual barrier.
While women made a case for “personal freedom”, most men equated feminine behaviour with what is “permissible”.
Twenty-six-year-old Neha Jaggi, who was chatting with her friends outside Castle 9 on Thursday evening thought the Mangalore incident was pathetic.
She said: “There is a lot of intolerance. If these men want to talibanise India, why call it a democracy? We should decide what we want to do.”
Professional Suchitra Suvarna echoed: “This is an open society. I am not against women smoking or drinking. But violence is wrong.”
However, Jaggi’s friend Rajiv Nair thought differently. Though he made a concession for “personal choice”, he said girls should be “decent” because that is what “Indian culture” demands. “The Ram Sene has its views. But the group should not have used violence to demonstrate what it feels to be wrong. There should be no extremes.”
Another man said if “culture is at stake”, then somebody has to come forward and point it out. “In our culture, women should not smoke or drink. We are not Americans or Europeans.”
Some women, like Alpi Jain, is now hesitant to visit the pub circuit. “Delhi is notorious for being unsafe,” she said, adding: “The other day I spotted a vehicle with Valimiki Sena written on it. What are they up to?” Her friend Jalaj Prasad said: “People in power are conservative. We need young leaders who understand the youth.”
Auto driver Jitendra Madan certainly does not agree with the Sri Ram Sene or Gehlot, but women smoking is against the sankriti of India, he said. “Women should not drink or smoke. If they do, they can get carried away and what if someone takes advantage?” he asked. He is also of the opinion that women do it to look trendy and fashionable, and this “is not right”.
However, ‘happy hour’ on Thursday evening reverberated with the usual buzz though the men behind the cash boxes looked a little anxious. They don’t want the young to panic and stop having a good time — not in these tough times.
Owner of Mocha and Smoke House Grill Shiv Karan Singh said: “If people don’t spend out of fear, it will weigh heavy on the economic downturn.” “I want couples to eat in my restaurants, boys and girls, boyfriends and girlfriends.”
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I agree. There is nothing wrong with girls and boys going out together when most Indians believe in destiny because they know each one of us has to follow its course in our lives like disease, divorce, death by hanging or burning, beheading of family, killing of parent by daughter at age 45, and when destiny is not cruel enough, becoming Chand and Fiza with life on hold. Our media has been teaching us what happens in their destiny when boys and girls go out together. It is silent, though, on millions of Indian boys and girls meeting at their weddings to take vows to rejoice marriage and raise families and hope for happiness ever after. Some do it early on and often with life-long guilt and many wait for opportune time reinforcing values of Sita and Savitri. It's all in our destiny.
.. I happen to have read about the treatment on women in Mangalore. Although I deplore it as an act of barbarism, there are some issues to be pondered. agreed that Indian women have reached unbelievable heights since they have stepped out of their homes, but there is a cost to pay also. One cannot afford to be ignorant of the fact that the society(Indian) has not yer accepted such rapid transition in Indian women. ... Time should be given. Remember, there are other women who dont agree with modern women and they also are responsible for indirectly instigating attacks on these women.my suggestion is that whatever of value can be adapted in your lives, its good. If you intend to ape the western culture under the guise of modernisation, than these Indian modern women should be prepared to face these or much harsher consequences in the future. if these women were outside India, no worries, but whilst in India, I pray that some precautions to be taken, no matter if democracy prevails.
Shiela is rightIf the parents allow these boys and girls to go to pubs than nobody has the right to stop them. I do not understand who has given these so called moral policemen the right to behave like wild animals. They should first correct themselves then try to change others. Our culture does not teach us to beat females no matter what she is doing. Any man doing it and people who are justifying thier actions do not deserve to live in a civilised democratic society. They should either be locked up behide bars for good or better still be deprted to someplace like Afghanistan.
Believe it or not, pubs brings problems rather than peace to the community! While no one has authority to take to law into their hands, but media ignored these incidences earlier and that includes police as well. What the media and human right activits did when an innocent school teacher was beaten in public by public. Also, the politician of the year award winner Delhi CM even suspended the poor lady even before investigation. I wonder how this OLD lady lost her senses which is very absurd for her age and that too being CM of Delhi!If a chief minister can be that stupid, than why blame the scoundrels for their stupidity! Why the media has not debated on the recent rave party where many girls found to have taken drugs, especially the children of film stars. In fact, we need to educate public on the effects of these pubs on their career and families from the life's of Rahul Mahajan and Sanjay Dutt. Certainly, it has more negatives than positives, especially for younger generation!
To all Liberal, India is already talibanized by allowing Polygamy for a section of the population, whare is the constituional equality for Women in our modern, liberal India.Should Polygamy be allowed? are there any voices against? till such time we do not fight for equality religious bigots from all religions will be doing moral policing and forcing religious practices down the throat
I agree nothing wrong in boys and girls going out together Mrs Dixit but that is not the question...the question is where they should go...for your political benefit you have smartly twisted the debate...no body is opposed to going out together but going out together to pub and nude parties are little different i guess...
Where are the so called protectors / custodian of the Hindu culture when our brides are burnt,daughters raped and wifes are abused my their mother-in laws ? ? ?Any of the leaders who oppoise the entry of women in pubs / restaurants / public place should go and live with the Taliban,they have a great future their ( living in pre-historiuc times !) leave India
It is absurd to enlist the support of every tom dick and harry on a issue of this nature. Only the learned people can comment who has vision for the future, mission for the future generation and who can advise on how to hand over this world with all its beauty and resources so that future generations would not suffer the bad legacies of their elders.This is not a matter of EMOTION. But seriously a future of present and next generation. What type of life's message are we leaving to our children and grandchildren. Should not our lives carry message of right living? Even nature or rest of the species does not overstep certain norms. What would have happened if sun and planets are having their own way in the name of freedom ? What would happen to this world if a naxalite, rapist, debaucher, prostitute, killer, swindler, murderer, politician, media, trade unions, goonda, terrorists - everyone justifies their acts in the name of freedom. Freedom is something for WELFARE OF ALL.
This is the same Chief Minister that also advised women not to venture out late at night (one female journalist was killed late in the night and she made these remarks). Our politicians can go to any extend to denounce the opposition party or praise (even wrong actions) of their own parties. So, Lalloo Yadav produced 9 children to counter the family planning program run by Congress Government.There is nothing wrong in boys and girls going out together. However, a pub or bar is definitely not a safe place for either well-mannered boys or girls. So many browls happen outside countless bars and pubs and even men going to these places are afraid. I am not sure why Sheila Dixit is advising them to be adventurous (especially in a crime prone city like Delhi).
Indeed, there is nothing wrong with boys and girls going out hand in hand, but in Kandahar the taliban and in India the sanghi parivar is against. The reason , both taliban and the sanghi or vhp like Hindu's are trying to inject al-qaida every where, but their culture is and will not be accepted anywhere. These junglee people are not aware of the fact, that no one has the right to interferre in anyones private life. Ms. Dixshit is right. But when we read the pathatic comments given by the Hindu taliban like followers of the VHP and BJP then we realise, that these nincompoops wants to run our Hindu religion but no one is allowing them to, because they loot us from different petrol pump and coffingate like scams, and they want us to accept al-qaida culture. These crazy persons should be sent to school to earn good education. They are a blot to our hindu religion and to the entire India.
Nautankee, you keep on giving us some bull or the other with your totally crazy
This Nautanki or anybody else are advocating pub culture only for their enjoyment. Do these fellows allow their sisters or wife or daughters to go to pub and smoke and drink with another man. If not, why different yardstick for self and family ladies?
Hey Raju, make sure you know what you say before blurting it out. Do you know what pub culture is? Going to a pub, "smoke and drink with another man", is not what it is. Get your facts right before criticizing someone, ok?
where r woman activists. even a single woman who is illtreated for any reason, specially in bjp ruled states gets condemnation immediately by the woman activists. the truth is to b accepted tht woman must enjoy their rights but within practical situations of the place where they r enjoying their freedom. in a conservative atmoshphere it is good for woman not to indulge in pub culture. there r many instances of rape,etc. in such situations which r generally not reported. if women enjoy such thngs then they r free to do anything in the name ofthe freedom. woman must not expect tht law will come tohelp them because in india judiciary is very slow. be practical. enjoy the rights in private places and not in the open is general view, i think.
Culture keeps changing. My grandfather has not spoken to his wife in public. My father has not taken my mother hand in public. I have not kissed my wife in public. We have always double standards. If pub going and drinking is bad for girls, then same is true for mens also. Let the public debate happen on these things and ban alcohal totally.
Ram sena attack is not for pub culture but for gaining the popularity of their newly formed group their intentions are totaly different, ask any one of the goonda of Ram sena what is Hindu culture i think none of them would be able to answer in fact our chief minister also must not be knowing, he even does not know how to spell the "PUB"he is reading a line in one of the speech as 'PLUB', ram sena is formed not to safeguard the hindu culture but for igniting communal riots, hate, terrorism.Theses goondas are fooling the public in the name of hindu culture.
Well said Masood Ali.Do you have some words to contribute for the Taliban
Hello, Old lady, it's time for you to shut up and set your administration straight. All Indians know that anybody kill and rape after 11pm in New Delhi, such is the state of law-and-order in capital. Though your are elected, many a times you have lost your senses!Don't you feel shame that a lady who was murdered in pub in front of many persons could not get justice for more than 10 years? What nonsense you are talking?
Dear Indian, the question is about freedom and women . If something is good for men it is good for women as well . Let us not get confused with indian or Hindu culture . Is bride burning , eveteasing ,corruption . killing engineers for not paying donation hindu or Indian culture . Let this intolerance stop . please stick to the subject we have here . Can girls and boys go out together . It is their choice . Can women smoke . It is their choice . Can women drink it is their choice . It is an entirely a different debate if there should be prohibition or smoking should be banned for ALL. Also please use decent language so that we can claim that to be part of our culture.
remove ban on brown sugar , hashish and open pubs for 24 hours.... then only we have cpmplete freedom !!!
We feel ashamed with the comments of these leaders who proved time and again that they are not connected with Indian values rather with Western culture. Probably the reason is that these people are brought up, educated and trained in Western World. This is why we are more and more being influenced by Western thought and culture.There is a dire need to protect Indian Values and undoubtedly Swami Ramdev is a shining star in the Galaxy of Indian Leaders. He is proving to be a selfless leader by his conduct and life style. Indian badly needs couple of figures like Swami Ramdev. We don't need foreign born and foreign educated people to rule us.
Yeah. Women smoking, drinking, dancing-in general, having a good time and enjoying life is against IndianCulture. TheMoral Police must protect Indian Culture which include Wife beating, Bride burning. Sati, female infanticide, widow incarceration. Infact, women must simply be denied the right to live.
This is a good answer for Suresh Kumar Sain . Let him read this and hang his head in shame
Will you allow your any one in UR family (daugher/grand daughter ) to and dance with boys in pub? You in sort so called secular fobia
She said: “There is a lot of intolerance. If these men want to talibanise India, why call it a democracy? We should decide what we want to do.” Who said we are in a democracy?For sixty years congress had made all the wings of democracy subservient to AICC chairperson.For the past five years we lived under a so called democracy whose PM was unelected.That is a much more serious thing
Let these politicians concentrate on the development of the people and their state for which the people have elected them .The younger generation in India knows how to conduct themselves there is no harm in the pub culture and they know their limits so they will take care of themselves. Let the politicians do what they are expected to do without putting their nose into all activities.
Madam Sheila will not understand the Indian culture. She is a politician and understands only vote banks - be it criminals, caste based, religion based or exploitation of the poor. During her 10 year rule, Delhi might have achieved some material growth due to pumping of large sums of tax payers money from the whole country, but from the point of culture, law and order and other aspects, Delhi have moved 25 years backward. Today's Delhi is the sum total of Political Bandits, Bangladeshi Migrants, congregation of hard core criminals and robbers and Madam has failed to understand this. When a new persons comes out at New Delhi or Old Delhi railway station or at the airport, he becomes a victim of the cheating by Autowallahs, Taxiwallahs.Almost 100 percent business in Delhi is carried out without paying the Taxes. Where is Madam and herGovt. Only vote bank attracts Madam. Long live Delhi and Madam Sheila. And those who talk of our culture should be put behind the bars....
Sir, It was the Father of our Nation Mahatma Gandhiji who initiated freedom of women in India. He stated that India will be considered free only if a woman has the liberty to walk on the street at midnight 12.00 O clock without any problem. But now with advances in Information technology, our culture is totally ruined and it becomes more westernised. I feel women should have the freedom to enter into any field and show their talents but at the same time, they should be matured enough to take care of themselves as being in India the chastitty of a woman is a paramount.
I dont think what Sri Ram sena has done is wrong... Being a female I'm glad to support them. Womens are the cultural reflection of our Nation. Women indulging in such activities detoriate our Nation's prestigeous Cultural pride. Then we are no more different from western countries, and we can no more boast of our precious Indian Culture.Being modern does'nt mean in going to pub, it should be in thought. And more over freedom given to women should not be misused in such practises. This sounds like volunterily putting our heads into Snakes's cave. If some mishap happens then there is no use in blamming others. Womens have a high responsibility in moulding our Nations. This is the high time we need to think of Rani lakshmi Bai, Jija Bai, Gargi, etc and live by their foot prints. BE AN INDIAN WOMEN !!!! HAM SAB BHARATH MATHA KI PUTRIYON !!!!! BHARATH MATHA KI JAI BOLO !!!!! JAI !!!!
Perhaps you will applaud bride burning and Sati as well as an honourable Indian cultue. we all know your type.
Hi Monisha, It's Great that you adore the Principle of Rani lakshmi Bai, Jija Bai, Gargi, etc.. But Ma'am you need to understand the time has changed you are free not Slave to any Foriegn , and say Time to has changed this is called evolution of a socity so just stop blaming Ram Rani lakshmi Bai, Jija Bai, Garg and others.. the people includes Girls work hard and enjoys life as the constitution of India says with freedom we know better then this Sic Politicians and kind of yours who cant discreminate between good and bad.. you kind of people dont have have confidence and do need Moral police to tell you what is good and what is bad..and sorry we the like minded people ..we dont want any interfearnce of others..
Hello, you better know that these pubs have become drug dens in Mumbai and Goa. It's only a matter of time they spread to to other cities!Pubs normally open in evenings, but what the hell they are doing during day time? Of course they are open to rich lads for fun n filth!There is a rule book for liquor shops and pubs, unless they are followed strictly, one cannot run them!Many politician's children have become drug addicts due to these pubs!
We do not want "Talibanization" of India but at the same time, we do not want "Americanization" of India either where free sex is practised in public, including President's office. India has its own culture and does not need to import any other culture.
THE GIRLS NEED TO BE PROTECTED FROM THEMSELVES !! MANY ARE SEEN TO BE DRUNK OR HIGH ON DRUGS AFTER A JAM SESSION . AUTO DRIVERS AND TAXI DRIVERS PUSH UNESCORTED GIRLS INTO THE VEHICLES AND TAKE THEM AWAY . POLICE WOMEN SHOULD BE POSTED AT PUBS AND DISCOS . MANY PARENTS WOULD BE SECRETLY HAPPY AT THIS DEVELOPMENT IN MANGALORE