Now that you hold no post in the party, what have you been doing?

As president of the party, my voice was muzzled. I had to restrain myself though I was aware that our ideology was not being properly put before the people.

Does that mean that you are at liberty now, and you actually want to speak up?

Certainly, I can speak. But do not expect me to say anything against theCongress and its ideology a legacy of Gandhi and Nehru.

But do you envisage any role for yourself now?

Yes, I have a role to play. At 82, I know that age is not on my side. But I realise the danger to secularism and democracy as the RSS and its outfits have no faith in them. And they are ruling the country now.

Can you fight them as an individual?

All parties -- including ours and those with faith in secularism will support me. I have got tremendous support from the Congress as well as other parties in the case against the RSS that I am fighting in the court.

But the Congress Party lost the electoral battle to the BJP and the forces which you say are inimical to secularism and democracy.

The fact that they are ruling today does not mean that we should surrender before them on the issue of secularism. We have to educate the masses and tell them what the RSS and BJP stand for, that they are a threat to social harmony. We will succeed.

But the BJP rules today becausepeople voted for it, for its slogan of able leadership and stable government?

Our vote got divided. And the BJP came to power with a lot of compromises on its ideology. But its slogan of able leadership and stable government is a dangerous one -- exactly the same as in Germany in the '30s which gave birth to a dictatorship. A government is not stable in itself, nor does a party give it the stability. It is the bureaucracy which gives it the stability.

You are facing a criminal defamation case filed by the RSS. Is this because of that you are concentrating more on the fight against it?

I have always fought against the Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh or the forces they represent. I did not spend nearly eight years in prison during the freedom movement for nothing. It was with a dream of a free, egalitarian society with equal opportunities. It was for a secular, harmonious and pluralised society. All these concepts and dreams are anathema to what the RSS stands for. So my opposition to the RSS goesback to my freedom struggle days. I have spoken against the RSS and its role as back as May 1970 in Parliament. This (defamation) case is an opportunity for me to expose them in the court as well.

You blamed the RSS for the Coimbatore blasts. But Tamil Nadu Chief Minister M. Karunanidhi has admitted that the ISI was behind it.

I visited Coimbatore last week. I met victims in hospitals and outside. I was told that the local police encouraged the RSS and the Hindu Munnani. I was surprised by Karunanidhi's statement. I do not see any role of the ISI in the blast there. Karunanidhi's statement comes out of fear of Article 356. There was no question of ISI role there. It was purely a bogey created by the master of whisper campaign or rumour-mongers. I verified it personally before coming to this conclusion. There is no Islamic Bomb, but certainly there is now an apprehension of a Godse Bomb.

Are you saying that in the context of the recently conducted nuclear tests in Pokharan?

I am talkingin entirety. The VHP and the RSS which control the government are now claiming that they will build a Shaktipeeth at Pokharan where the test was conducted under guidance of Abdul Kalam who belongs to the minority Muslim community. Even on such a major scientific feat, they are playing with the sentiments of Muslim and Christian minorities.

You sound like a great of critic of the N-test?

I am not saying that. All that I would want to say now is that the scientific experiment could have been a success even without talking ill of China. The government, by its utterances, has done a big damage to the process of normalising relations with China which Rajiv Gandhi initiated in 1988. There is no need to terrorise neighbouring countries. L.K. Advani's utterances smack of arrogance, and not sheer ego.

You mean what he has said on Pakistan?

Yes.

But what Advani has said is more or less the same thing which successive governments have been saying on the Kashmir issue?

So far as thequestion of Kashmir and its status is concerned, I support the view fully. It is an integral part of India. But his hysteric utterances create an impression that he is creating a war situation. I will not be a party to that. His extra-militant statement also indicates that the Vajpayee-led government appears to be succumbing under the thumb of the RSS. The nuclear test should have been viewed purely as a national and scientific success. But there are all attempts made to inject militancy and communalise social atmosphere through Hindu euphoria.

You seem quite agitated with Advani?

There is nothing personal. But look at what he has done. In the name of Hindu religion, he exploited people's superstition. He undertook shila pujan yatra. I am a Hindu, but there is nothing called Hindu religion. There is only a Hindu culture which Vajpayee himself has stated long ago.There is Vedic dharma which does not allow idol worship. Then who is responsible for communal riots over shila pujan and riots overAyodhya, Kashi and Mathura and the resultant social divide?

How do you rate this government's performance?

What peformance? It is yet to come.